Confidence vs. Obnoxiousness [ e ]

I am constantly wrestling with a lot of the same issues, Gregg! In my case, however, I attribute the desire not to bother people more to my concern for others' feelings and rights and perhaps a bit to the perfectionistic expectations I tend to put on myself than to shyness. Not that I am the most outgoing person in the world, as I would say that I lean more toward the "wallflower" side in unfamiliar social situations, but I think the case with me is more that I tend to take mental notes when I see other people being rude or inconsiderate and remind myself that I don't want to be like them.

I suppose another factor might be that I was kind of non-conformist as a kid and was consequently picked on a lot. Because of this, I certainly know how it feels to have your feelings trampled on, and I guess I try to make an effort whenever I can not to make others feel that way.

For these type of reasons, I think you are a very nice and respectable person and should be commended for your amazingly civil apartment behaviour! I would pay extra rent to live next door to someone like you. Haven't you ever noticed the phenomenon that people who play music really loudly on their high-powered aftermarket car stereos NEVER play good music? I have never once pulled up next to someone at a stop light and said to myself, "Wow! This person has great taste in music! I'm really glad they decided to share it with me! Maybe I should ask them what the band is called!" In the same vein, I don't think most people live in apartments because they want the great sense of community and are terribly interested in what their neighbors are doing. I for one have always lived in apartments because real estate is obscenely expensive where I live and I can't afford to buy my own nice quiet house. I don't care what my neighbors are doing. I want quiet!

I have not done much travelling either, partially due to being "financially challenged", but also largely due to the fact that I don't want to be an "ugly American" either. This is not because I am shy or because I am ultra-patriotic or anything like that - I simply feel that when you are a guest in another country, you owe the native people there the common courtesy of at least being able to exchange some basic pleasantries (preferably pronounced somewhat decently!) in their language. Sure, I guess I'd have to admit that on some level I maybe feel a little guilty that Americans are generally very privileged compared to a lot of people in other countries - maybe I should or maybe I shouldn't - but this is just one more reason not to act like an ass! This is largely why "resort" type of vacations in places like Mexico do not appeal to me at all - I don't want to play the role of the "cash cow" who is waited on hand-and-foot by people who aren't really treated much better than slaves. Yuck.

I would hope that someone who would say something like "Hong Kong has the ugliest women in the world" is someone that has never had sex they haven't had to pay for!

Truly confident people don't take S#*T from others, but that doesn't mean that they're busy dishing it out.

The bottom line is that I think you're too hard on yourself! From my psychological armchair, I don't see anything that you're doing wrong - you're just trying to be a nice guy! I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want to be innately more bold, but not wanting to be an annoying jerk is a good thing! People who are impressed by cocky A-holes are typically pretty shallow and boring anyway.

Finding a good relationship is more a matter of luck than anything else as far as I can tell, and if divorce rates are any indication, I would say that more and more people seem to be "settling" for people who are not their ideal match.

posted by bionicroachAugust 7, 2001 at 11:30

I don't want to be a jerk... [ e ]

Though I can be at times. But anyway, I see your point. Maybe this is changing the topic but you've probably seen / felt / experienced the "women want bad guys" phenomenon. They want the jerk. All you have to do is look around and see that every jerk has a girlfriend and quite a few *nice guys* don't. Yea, I know, I hear that as they get older they start looking to *nice guys*. That doesn't really console me though because I feel like they settle for *nice guys* but *bad guys* get their motor running.

Whatever, I'll just keep telling myself I don't want a woman that goes for *jerks*. It just seems like they are few and far between sometimes.

Back to the topic at hand. Okay, I agree I don't want to be a jerk. But like you said I would like to be more confident. It does seem pretty silly to wander around HK for 2 hours looking for a place I don't feel like I'll be a bother to eat at and basically settling for fast food.

I know what you mean about the language thing too. I felt guilty for not knowing any Cantonese while in H.K. Not even "hello", "thank you", "please" or "goodbye". Of course I doesn't help that I've asked about 7 people over the last 5 years and each one gives me a different pronounciation for "thank you". dojay, doche, doshe, joche, jojay, joje, dochee, dochea. WHICH IS IT DAMNIT! I did think about writing some of what I was trying to say in Kanji and hoping I could convey my message but I didn't do it.

On the other hand, while Europeans may each know 3 to 6 languages because their countries are so small that's not true for most other countries. Koreans basically only know Korean, Japanese basically only know Japanese, Chinese basically only know written chinese and their local dialect. In other words, people are just calling Americans names, ignore them.

As for the Mexico thing. While I'm not a club med party kind of guy I did go to Cancun on my honeymoon (married at 25, divorced at 26). I don't know if it's different than say Cabo, Acapulco or Puerto Vallarta. You could rationalize going though I suppose as they need the business and having business lets them slowly build their economy. Maybe that's too simplfied. I know that I don't like feeling like an intruder and so when I went to Cancun, one night we went *into town* which is 10 minutes by bus from all the hotels. It's got lots of shops setup for tourists and stuff but we went to a small restaurant recommended by our guide. It may or may not have been mostly for tourists but I still felt like maybe I was unwelcome. There was nothing to suggest that. It was all in my head though I can feel that almost anywhere. In the Japanese restaurants on Sawtelle, in Monterey Park, in Garden Grove - Little Saigon and of course her in Japan depending on where I am.

posted by greggmanAugust 8, 2001 at 19:58

Traveling Alone... [ e ]

I had a VERY similar experience during a trip to Seoul in '97. Believe me, I KNOW how you feel!

At the time I was living in Yamanashi, Japan while working on the JET Program. I went to South Korea alone expecting to have as much fun as I had while traveling alone in Hokkaido. (I know enough Japanese to travel and make small talk.) In the end I was too intimidated to eat in local Korean restaurants or venture far outside of the city! I didn't meet any cool hostel buddies or friendly Korean students interested in speaking English. (Ok, 2 nice Japanese college students, 1 psychotic 40-something American, and 1 mentally ill Korean woman at Pizza Hut.) After pretty much exhausting the sights of Seoul and seeing the DMZ I spent the last three days of the trip writing postcards at a mall food court and waiting for my departure date to arrive.

In retrospect, believe it or not, I don't regret the trip one bit. I learned that some people love the freedom of traveling alone. They're usually very outgoing extroverts that enjoy adventures and striking up random conversations with people. They're often people who understand that the "worst thing that could possibly happen" is rarely as awful as we imagine. As much as I admire these people, the trip taught me that I'm most definitely NOT one of them! When I'm in a unfamiliar place where I don't know the language or customs I NEED someone to laugh with and share the embarassment or help diffuse the awkwardness. After the trip I decided not to travel to any countries alone unless I know the language or have friends/family to visit.

You may come to a similar or different conclusion at the end of your trip. Whatever the case, I think the key is that the trip is teaching you things about yourself. For people that aren't especially outgoing, that's a lot of what travel brings.

For now, I'd suggest taking lots of pictures and writing as many of your thoughts down as you can. Buy food from grocery stores or street vendors if you need variety w/o the embarassment or imtimidation. (Isn't HK famous for street stalls?) Go to a loitering-friendly place and observe everyone and everything you can. Better yet, go find a less-urban area to stroll around, hike, or just think. Try to do things that feel less strange when you're alone. (If that makes sense?) Good luck!

posted by maikuAugust 9, 2001 at 11:53

Good Travel Suggestion [ e ]

Those are all good suggestions.

Street stalls have been, how do they put it, frowned on? Technically they are not illegal but they are not giving out licenses to run them anymore so effectively there are none.

There are lots of *corner* shops with food out almost like a street stall but one of my HK contacts told me to avoid them because he always gets sick when he tries them.

It sounds like you had similar experience in Korea. I don't regret going at all. HK was way cool and I might even like to live there for a year or two (don't know if I will) but like you said I learned some things about me and that is either that I'm not the kind of person who should travel alone or I'm not *yet* that kind of person.

I do understand that doing the backpack / hostel thing is supposed to be different in that you make friends at the hostels but knowing me and my introvertedness I'm not confident that I would actually make those friends so I'm not sure if I'm ready to plan that kind of vacation just in case I'm right.

posted by greggmanAugust 10, 2001 at 14:51

Armchair Psychiatrist's Rant [ e ]

Trust me, Gregg, I know exactly what you mean when you say "bad guys get womens' motor running"! I've experienced it over and over and over again, both with women I've had "crushes" on and with good female friends. Actually, I've even been through it with women I've been in relationships with! I often fill the role of the "counselor", helping women get though the aftermath of a disastrous relationship. I'm usually described as "a good listener". While I enjoy giving advice and support when I can, part of me feels like I'm wasting my time because women usually don't really seem to listen to what I'm telling them. As soon as they feel better, they out and get shot down again! It's a very difficult and touchy topic to discuss, partially because it is so easy to counter-argue that the only reason a "nice guy" would bring all this up is because he is jealous of a**hole guys, and partially because one must be careful when making generalized comments about women in order to avoid being a jerk himself! (However, in this case, I think I have seen enough evidence to support my point as opposed to just making unfounded stereotypical generalizations.)

At any rate, it is certainly baffling to a logic-driven person to ponder why exactly a woman would be impressed by rude, malicious, chauvinistic, or other jerk-like behaviour when there are clearly a lot of "nice guys" out there. I really don't have an answer, but as always, I do have some theories. Perhaps it has something to do with the potential of a jerk to "be noticed", basically to dominate social gatherings. By comparision, most of the women I know are inherently far more social creatures than most of the men I know. Most women seem to like to go to parties, for instance, while most "nice guys" I know will come up with all manner of creative means to avoid them. I don't mean the informal "small group of friends" type of outing which most "shy" people also enjoy, I am talking more about the type of party where there are a lot of strangers or vague acquaintences where the object is to make small talk with people you barely know and/or like. Also, although it is certainly not a rule set in stone, in general, most women seem to spend a lot more time worrying about what other people (especially other women) think of them than men do - Are my shoes appropriate? Does my hair color look blonde in this light...or greenish-grey? Am I too fat for these pants? Well, at least I'm not as fat as her! For some reason, women are usually savagely competitive with each other in this manner and rather than try to understand it, I've just come to accept it. What is your point, you say? Well, I'm getting to it! If it is true that statistics seem to say that a lot of women tend to go for jerks then, it would be logical to assume that if a woman obtains her very own jerk, other women would then be jealous of this coveted commodity. Jerks are definitely the type of people who get noticed, and if the goal is to be noticed, then maybe it doesn't matter that the attention jerks generate is often negative. Sadly, the type of people who tend to keep to themselves, mind their own business, or do their own thing, or try not to bother people generally don't get noticed. Perhaps a lot of women don't give "nice guys" a chance because the word "nice" is - unfortunately and inaccurately - generally used as a euphemism for "boring".

This brings us to my other theory, which is that a lot of people thrive on negativity and and conflict as a sort of synthetic personality additive. It doesn't seem to make sense, but I actually know quite a few people who seem to illustrate this. I don't know whether it is because they don't have enough to do - work, school, hobbies, sports, whatever - or because some people just enjoy causing stress and making others feel bad, but a lot of people I know seem to spend most of their time complaing about or criticizing other people, usually behind their backs. I would agree that sometimes, people cause problems and need to be "called" on it, and a confrontation is sometimes the only way to solve the situation. This is not what I'm talking about. I am referring to negative, either passively or actively aggressive behaviour known as being "catty". The kind that no good comes from. Women - not all women, but a lot of women - often entertain themselves by being catty. I belive this is also one of the reasons that some women tend to get along famously with gay men. (Again, some. I know gay men who are not catty, but I am talking about the type who sit around in public places and just start trashin' away! (I would like to reinforce right now that I am not intending to be overly stereotypical or judgmental and certainly do not want to impart even the slightest hint of bigotry. This is just my opinion based on personal experience!) The irony is that catty gay men as well as straight men who are the type of *jerks* you speak of (though I would venture to say they would NEVER admit it) actually have many traits in common. Both are "catty" in their own way. Jerks would probably just prefer to describe their personalities as "cocky".

At the risk of discounting my whole argument here by sounding bitter and snooty, I feel confident in saying that people who spend most of their time criticizing and making fun of others who don't look or act just like them are probably not very interesting overall and wouldn't have much to say otherwise. They also haven't matured much - if any - since high school. It's a lot easier to point out something that's wrong with someone else than it is to come up with a creative or insightful thought. I'd choose a quiet person with conviction over "the life of the party" any day...

posted by bionicroachAugust 11, 2001 at 13:14

Seven Habits of Sensitive, Celibate Men [ e ]

I found this article on Plastic.com where there is some discussion and rebuttal but it was interesting (and a bit depressing) to read.

posted by greggmanAugust 12, 2001 at 12:36

Good Advice (taken with a grain of salt) [ e ]

That article does actually have some truth to it, but I think that a lot of people are perhaps failing to notice that like most stuff on Plastic or Salon it is intended to be a bit tongue-in-cheek. (The site is called "Plastic" for Pete's sake!) At least that's the take I had, considering that the author seems to be far too intelligent to really believe some of what he says. For a better example, see his The Seven Vices of Highly Creative People.

Yes, most of what he suggested would probably bring more success on the dating scene, but whether any of it would actually help start/sustain a long-term relationship is questionable. Everybody puts on a bit of a facade when they first meet someone they might want to date, but you can only pretend to be someone else for so long until you either get sick of it or are exposed for who you really are. Changing your behaviour might help you in the short term, but it still doesn't change the fact that finding a compatible person seemingly takes more luck than anything else...

<sigh>

posted by bionicroachAugust 13, 2001 at 11:16

[ e ]

I apologize for not having had time to show the greggman a truly great NON-LONELY time in HK. I'm so swamped with work. It's 1:35am and I'm taking a small break before returning to this report. Well, I guess if I took you out, you might really have fallen in love with this place. Why are different "places" always so good to visit, but never great to stay? Or is that any other place than where you are at is a great place to visit?

I was scanning the web when I ran across these comments. Anyway, the only point I can make from here is, the grass is always greener on the other side. I have longed to be in Tokyo again for so long, perhaps because I feel as if I'm stuck here in Hong Kong (7 years now and counting). But, I'm not. Now the greggman says he'd consider moving here! Oh what has the world come to?

BTW, I've been here for a long time and my Chinese (Cantonese) still stinks. So I'm kind of like you, point and grunt. But I tend to stick to tourist places that do speak English anyway. In Japan, it's much worse.

Well greggman, if you ever make it back here, I promise I'll try to make more time.

P.S. Go to Singapore, Thailand, Korea, and then we'll talk about what women look like in Asia.

posted by theVoonerAugust 15, 2001 at 11:44

beautiful women [ e ]

Beautiful women is in the eye of the beholder.

I know what you mean. There are tons of phyiscally beautiful women here in Japan. Maybe even more in Korea. For Singaporian women I've only see the stewaresses on Singapore Air and yes they were exteremely beautiful. I haven't see Thai women yet.

But, altough in the sense of "model like" beauty I see your point, beauty to me is genenerally somebody I think (or imagine) that I could more than just stare at but I could actually become good friends with on top of being attracted physically. Even if in the strictly physical sense they are only a 6 or 7 the rest, in my imagination since I haven't actually met them, bumps them up to 9 or 10. Conversely, I see 8s, 9s and 10s in Japan but my perception of their personality bumps them down to 4 or 5.

When I see beautiful Japanese women here in Japan, more often than not I also see somebody who reads every fashion magazine, can't leave the house without a hour of preparation, would require me to always wear a suit, is hoping to meet somebody rich so they can spend his money etc. More often than in Japan, when I see a Chinese women I see someone more *down to earth* as they say.

So far in my limited exposure that's been true. The 5 girls that I know from H.K. are all exceptionally cool people. That makes me see them as *beautiful*.

I'm going to try to go to Singapore in early October.

Don't worry about not having had enough time for me in August. I didn't come expecting anybody to have any time for me. It was just my first time traveling alone and I was shocked I guess that I was so uncomfortable with it.

posted by greggmanAugust 17, 2001 at 11:04

Beefy [ e ]

Greggman,

Travelling alone can be the worst depending on the way you travel.

If you travel alone i'd suggest that you try backpacking. I've backpacked alone a few times (US, Europe and Australia) and meeting people back-packing is easy. You end up doing most of the same things with these people you meet anyways.

Just a suggestion...

posted by BeefyDecember 26, 2001 at 13:07

RELAX! [ e ]

Five pair of wireless headphones?  One for every weekday?

I'm not trying to make fun of you or hassle you, but snap out of it!  You being ultra-considerate to others is a nice gesture, but you're going way out of your way if you ask me.

I don't know if you own a car or not, but would you stop driving or taking a bus if you thought the exhaust was bothering people? 

Let's just stick to not bothering neighbors.  Tell your neighbors to simply inform you when music or movies are played too loud.  As for not flushing your toilet until morning, that's crazy.  If someone is such a ligh sleeper that they wake to the sound of rushing water through their possibly (probably) thin walls, they probably sleep with earplugs and therefore won't be bothered.

E for effort, but keeping *excess* noise down is probably sufficient.  Content neighbors and a comfortable, more normal you.

posted by anon_mattJuly 15, 2003 at 10:07

lighten up [ e ]

Whoa! Are you a real person???
You sound like you're miserably depressed.
You seriously need to work on yourself.
Your self-esteem sounds super low.
You seem to be uncomfortable in normal
situations, hong kong has tonnes of visitors
particularly business people, a solo traveller
isn't so odd. I think if you stopped sending out
I'm uncomfortable signals, you would attract
people interested in talking to you. As for not
wanting to put others out, don't worry if you
go into a busy restaurant in HK you will be
sharing a table with strangers.
I'd recommend you cultivate a sense of
adventure. Why are you even overseas???
Also, focussing on why relationships won't
work, highlights the fact that you seem to
be afraid of relationships. So what? If your
relationship doesn't work, chalk it up to
experience and move on. Analyzing and dismissing
potential girlfriends before dating them is emotionally
safe but look at the result, you're single, and whine
about not having a girlfriend. Frankly, instead of
focussing on having or not-having a girl-friend I
think you really need to address your issues, a
therapist can probably help by giving you a reality
check. It's just life, it's not hard.

posted by anon_anonymousdaisyJuly 15, 2003 at 19:43